1   VAL:
 
 
 		 Hello all,  I am Val Lewis, clinical psychologist in private practice in
Perth, West  Australia. I have been a practicing psych for about 38 years and
still in a   learning curve....speaking of which a reflecting team will be
totally a new approach for me, so please bear with me as I learn as I go.
 
    2   MARSHA
 
 		 Hi.  I'm Marsha McDonough, a psychologist in Austin, Texas who talks with
individuals, couples, and families in my private practice.
 
    3  RIET:
 
 		 Hi, I'm Riet Samuels, a psychotherapist in the San Francisco Bay Area. I haven't been on a reflecting team before.    Please bear with me.
 
    4 KILIAN:
 
 
 		 Hi - I'm Kilian Fritsch, a clinical social worker from Philadelphia. I
appreciate all three of you letting us into your lives. Would someone like to
start?
 
    5 MARSHA:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 		 I heard Jack ask Taylor for support, advice, and ideas. That made me wonder about who else Jack might have asked for support, advice, and ideas. Maybe he has or maybe he hasn't asked for or received advice, ideas, and support.  If he has, I wonder what effect the advice, support, and ideas had on him as a person and a husband.  I didn't hear Jill ask for advice,  support, or ideas from Taylor, so I don't know for certain if she wants  that or if she has received that.  If she does and has, I'm also curious to  know the influence of advice, support, and ideas from others on her.
 
    6 KILIAN:
 
 
 
 
 
 		 Marsha, could you say a bit more about your thinking regarding the
effect that advice, support and ideas may have had on Jack? Is this something
that you have noticed to be important in your work? Could you comment on why
you may have picked up this particular aspect of what you observed with Jack
and Jill? And is there anything about one person in a couple asking for
advice, support and ideas, when the other does not ask for it, that brings up
more questions for you?
 
    7. MARSHA:
 
 
 
 
 
 		 I believe that Jack and Jill are in a struggle with something--maybe
it's  unfairness, as you brought up, Kilian. (Note: Marsha and Kilian sent
posts simultaneously. For purposes of clarity, one theme will be developed at
a time.) It has been my experience that when people are struggling with
something big like that they almost always have been talking with others
about the struggle.  I'm always interested in those conversations, who they
are with, and how they relate to the struggle.
 
    8 KILIAN:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 		 So (your question might relate to) who have been other witnesses to this
conversation, or to pieces of this conversation? And what it might mean for
one partner to have multiple witnesses to the conversation and for the other
partner to have no one as a witness or hearer to their conversation or part
of their conversation?

Or perhaps this might give some clues as to who might be recruited into
some kind of helping team, like a team of consultants who could be called
upon in times of trouble? Is it your experience that potential consultants
are out there?
 
    9 MARSHA
 
 
 
 
 
 		 Yes, consultants and witnesses--those who care about and see what we have  only had a glimpse of here today.  Ideas from their close ones might support the fact that unfairness and disappointment have taken over and that could be a bit scary.  On the other hand, my guess is that Jack and Jill's close ones--witnesses and consultants to their lives-- may also provide the kinds of support, advice, and ideas that shrink the influence of unfairness and disappointment.
 
    10. KILIAN:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 		 There were a couple of places that stood out for me, and they relate to
a question I have about the possible theme of unfairness. In (60) Jack said,
"..how unfair this whole thing is.." and then in (74) he said that Jill
carried grudges, and later Jill talked about the lack of sympathy which Jack
had regarding her accident and recovery. Later, Jack (91, 92?) said, "I am
trying to make things work here."

So I guess the notion of unfairness kept popping up for me as I heard
these reports. And I wondered whether Jack and Jill had some familiarity with
stories of unfairness in their lives, and if it seemed like unfairness might
have taken advantage of them like it may have done earlier, like before they
met. And I was wondering whether unfairness might have taken a back seat at
some time when things were better for them?

So I would be interested in knowing whether Jack and Jill felt that
talking this way with Taylor felt fair, even if they may have been speaking
in ways which reflected notions of unfairness? And whether they could think
about what unfairness wants them to think about the session? Or would they
prefer to make some claim for a code of fairness between them, which they
might have experienced in some way with Taylor? That's a long reflection, but
those are some of the things which ran through my mind, and I'd be interested
in what they might have to say about that.
 
    11. RIET:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 		 Kilian, you said that you were wondering  whether unfairness might have taken a back seat at some time when things were better for J &J.  Along those lines, I'm interested in knowing what attracted Jill to Jack and when  (before the accident) the signs of trouble started. What was it that disappointed her or what became unfair to her? What were her expectations? I once heard someone say that for every marriage there are four marriages.  The one each of the couple expects it to be and the one each one experiences it.

How did that play out for Jack and Jill?
 
    12. KILIAN:
 		 I'm curious what Jack and Jill might have to say about the four marriages. Have you found that couples have something to say about that?
 
    13. RIET:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 		 I think I've used it only once, but it did lead to a whole conversation about expectations and what was different. I think that just the knowing that people's experiences can be like that, can make people a bit more tolerant of the other.

Kilian, I'd like to pick up on something else you said. You said that you
were wondering whether they could think about what unfairness wants them to
 think about the session.  I don't quite get this. That they were unfairly treated by Taylor? Or at least experienced it that way? Or by each other in the description about what happened? (as in Jack saying it's unfair that Jill holds grudges for that long?)
 
    14. KILIAN:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 		 No, I'm using unfairness as something which neither Jack nor Jill created, and neither did Taylor. This is one of those externalizing statements, meant to suggest that the marriage might have been invaded somehow by ideas of unfairness, which then had an easy time of Jack and Jill once trouble started. I didn't think they were treated unfairly by Taylor, but if Jack and Jill understood this idea, they might think about the way unfairness would want them to think about the session. It's really not
important that they "get" this.

They don't really have to "get" anything we say. Instead, I'm interested in what ideas are sparked for them, ideas which don't have to answer our questions, but which come to their minds as they hear us talk like this.
 
    15. RIET:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 		 In the same way the concept of unfairness hit you, the concept of disappointment hit me. I'd like to mention the disappointment I hear in both. Jack had expectations of coming home to good food, a clean house, and plenty of sex, and he has been disappointed in that expectation. However, I think  Jill's disappointment goes deeper. She states that Jack treats her badly and  is not good to her. He makes her feel pressured, she wants to crawl in a hole,  and have "more space to be me" (what is that 'me' ?). She wants him to respect her needs (I'd like to explore that more), to be not so rough with her, be gentle. As she does say that Jack was different before, I'd like to know more about how he was different and what it was that attracted her to him so that she chased him. Was he gentle before, and now he's a bear?
 
    16. KILIAN:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 		 Riet - you used the words : "Jill's disappointment goes deeper..., she wants to crawl in a hole,..."

Is it your experience that the partner with the deeper experience sometimes talks less in sessions like this? Could you say anything that may have facilitated your possible noticing of this phenomenon or other things like it, I mean something about the meaning of silence in a session, or the meanings attached to situations when people speak decidedly less than the partner? And finally, could you say something about what you have found to work in situations like that?
 
    17. RIET:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 		 I've only seen half a dozen couples so I'm not an expert on couple
therapy,  but I know one couple where the wife had given up it seemed, and she
didn't  talk much. Most of my feeling (about this session ) came from the
transcript. And maybe it's  unfair to talk about whose disappointment is deeper, but
Jack seemed more  good-natured and almost jocular about what he thought marriage would be like  (cook, clean, sex), whereas the statements of Jill I quoted
seemed more like someone who has given up.  I was almost surprised when Jill said at the end of the transcript that she wanted the marriage to last. That makes me
feel more optimistic--somehow I hadn't expected it (or not that soon).
 
    18. MARSHA:
 
 
 
 
 		 Like Kilian and Riet, I too noted that disappointment and unfairness may be what have teamed up and somehow steered Jack's and Jill's marriage off course.  And yes, Kilian,  to name those who are close to Jack and Jill as  witnesses makes sense to me, but I don't know if it makes sense to Jack and Jill and Taylor to include the ideas, advice, and support of those close ones in their talks together.
 
    19. KILIAN:
 
 
 		 Could you describe the sense it makes to you, and how that relates to your
experience in your work when ideas, advice, and support have been included in
your work with couples?
 
    20. MARSHA:
 		 I could, but at this point in the conversation, I will only listen to the rest of the team. 
 
    21. VAL: 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 		 First, I wanted to say that I was struck with both Jack and Jill's ability to speak openly with Taylor, and how they both told him that they want their marriage to work. They both were able to say how much they had loved each other before their troubles began, and both were able to imagine a near future  loving  relationship.

I too noticed the theme of 'unfairness' in both Jack and Jills stories, and also was wondering along with Marsha, about Jack's sources of advice and support...I noted that Jill does talk with her girlfriends and I wondered if Jack also had friends or relatives he can talk with?

I also had the impression that Jack and Jill are having difficulty understanding one another's point of view, as they several times asked Taylor to say something or do something on their behalf. I was wondering then, if J&J would be interested in exploring in more depth their individual understandings of the problems with one another, with Taylor's guidance. For example, would it be useful to take a closer look at what each understands "love" to look like, as my own reaction to what they said was that they have very different  understandings here which may be a source of roadblocks for them. If so, I was wondering if might there be any connection or parallel that J, J, and Taylor could explore between these sorts of roadblocks to understanding and the sense of unfairness that speaks to them?
 
    22. RIET:
 
 
 
 
 		 Val, In light of your comments about J &J taking   <<.. a closer look at what each   understands "love" to look  like,>>   and your idea <<.. that they have very different understandings here which may be a source of roadblocks for them, >>

I was thinking that they could even take each other's part in a roleplaying      exercise to see whether they understand the other.
 
    23. KILIAN:
 
 		 Val,  could you say a bit more about your experience of "different understandings" in your work with couples? And about what you've noticed can happen when these roadblocks get defined and exposed?
 
    24. VAL:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 		 Frequently people have different 'definitions' of concepts that are never looked
at openly and which create unnecessary confusions between them. It is not
uncommon  for most folks to just 'assume' that their own meanings are shared,
and are obvious, when perhaps they are not. For example, if one person
believes that   'love' means one thing, such as actions (showing love through
frequent love making, cleaning house), and the other may  believe that love means
showing that you have heard the other person and are prepared to compromise re your own needs.    If they have very different understandings they will then
talk past each other a    lot of the time and each may then turn in frustration
to their own individual   means of communicating that frustration, such as turning
into a 'bear' (31-32) or   retreating into silence (92). They are then at an
understanding roadblock. This is   indeed, to me, as outsider, unfair to them
both as they may in fact be able to  resolve this by searching for new meanings together.
 
    25. RIET:
 
 
 
 
 		 Maybe in order not to overwhelm Jack and Jill with questions, we might ask
Taylor  to have a session with them first in which he gives our 'edited'
thoughts so  they can respond to them and then maybe we can do the same thing next week?

What do you think?
 
    26. KILIAN:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 		 Well, they're here in front of us right now. It might be important to say that they shouldn't feel under any obligation to answer or even think about all that we say. Whatever comes to mind for them is what we're interested in. But perhaps we've done enough for this time. I'm thinking what we may have provided some food for thought for Jill, Jack and Taylor. We could close this down, unless someone had something more they wanted to say.

Would we like to hear Jill, Jack, and Taylor's reflections to our reflections, should they want to give them?

What do you think?
 
    27. VAL:
 
 
 		 Val: I am OK with that, and might like to hear from them if they want us to explain ourselves more or if they are happy, with Taylor, to pick up on various reflections and run with them.
 
    28. RIET:
 		 I'd like indeed to hear from Jack and Jill and Taylor now (if they were so inclined).
 
    29. KILIAN:
 
 		 So I'll finish by saying thanks to J &J and Taylor, and we look forward to hearing whatever they have to say about our reflections.