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This case is part of a series of imaginary
therapy cases being constructed on the PMTH listserv for analysis and study
of the therapy process on PMTH. The transcripts are being composed
collaboratively by professional therapists. Click
here to return to the TOC for this transcript series.
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1.
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After
the last session, in the week that Jack and Jill should have come in, Jill
had the flu and was home from work. But the next week they come in.
When Kilian comes to the waiting room, Jill is reading a magazine and Jack
is standing studying a picture on the wall. Kilian enters the room,
Jill looks up and Jack turns around to Kilian and says, "Are you ready
for us?" |
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2.
KILIAN
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You bet. How're you feeling, Jill?
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3.
JILL
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Oh,
I think I'm over it, but it wasn't fun. I want to say that Jack was
more helpful than usual. I mean he let me sleep. He usually
doesn't.
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Here is some evidence that the therapy is having some effect outside of the session. |
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4.
JACK
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See,
she can't give me a compliment without attaching something negative to
it. (He clearly notices an obvious negative look on Jill's face.)
Just pointing it out, Jill. Better that you notice your negativity.
I don't think you always notice it.
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Nevertheless, Jack and Jill immediately go back to their conflicted way of talking with each other. |
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5.
JILL
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(deep
breath.) Well, he did let me sleep this time, and that's unusual,
and I appreciate it.
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6.
JACK
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I'm
always good when you're sick, bringing stuff and things like that.
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7.
JILL
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Okay,
Jack. If you say so.
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8.
KILIAN
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So,
should we pick this up here, or circle back to what we were talking about
when we ended two weeks ago?
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9.
JACK
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I
can't remember exactly what we were talking about two weeks ago, but I'm
sure it is more important than this stuff.
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10.
JILL
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Well,
I just want to say this: Jack was good this time, better than usual, but
the truth is that he is sometimes so good it's just annoying. I'll be trying
to sleep and he's insisting that I eat or something.
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Jack and Jill still seem distracted by their impulse to blame and counterblame as well as defend themselves. |
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11.
JACK
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I
let her sleep this time but she just can't seem to let go. That's the problem
with Jill. Even when I get her point and try to do things completely her
way, which sometimes seems very unreasonable and unfair to me, she still
complains about the way things used to be. There isn't any winning with
her.
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12.
JILL
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You're
right. I apologize.
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Jill seems to be trying to stop the endlessness of their blaming each other. |
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13.
JACK
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Woo!
That's a first.
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14.
KILIAN
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Could
the two of you please explain what just happened here?
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15.
JACK
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What do you mean?
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16.
KILIAN
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Well,
I'm thinking that it might have been tough for a young guy to give up playing
outside, and instead to spend more time inside and be quieter. You mentioned
having to give up having fun, and the fact that the neighbor got his way
by making noise and threats. So someone being unpleasant seemed to take
some control over you having fun, and you had to accommodate to him.
Any thoughts? |
Kilian is referring to an incident that Jack described in the last session. |
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17.
JACK
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I
don't know. It was a pretty significant experience. It screwed up one whole
summer. Instead of playing loud the way we liked to, we had to be quiet.
Not very fun for a kid. But I don't see what it has to do with me as a
husband. As I've told you, I do everything I can think of to make Jill's
life more pleasant. I do most of the housework, for example. Old Everitt
(the guy next door) used to go out of his way, I believe, to make things
unpleasant for us. This couldn't be further from what I do. …Unless you're
suggesting that I am talking to make tings unpleasant for Jill, and that's
just not true, not that I can see. I might talk because I'm nervous, you
know, kind of a nervous habit, but I'm not trying to make things hard for
her. I want her to be happy with me, after all. So that wouldn't make sense.
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18.
KILIAN
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Jack,
I'm confused. I was wondering about the story of Everitt and whether it
has influenced your life in some way, and you said "I don't see what it
has to do with me as a husband." How did you get from my question to something
about you as a husband?
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19.
JACK
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Well,
to be honest, I just thought maybe I could see where you were trying to
go with this. You were thinking that because I was a kid and that had to
be quiet because of the man next door that now maybe I wanted to be like
Everitt and be in control. Maybe there's some truth to that, but I don't
see it because Everitt was a mean old bastard, and I don't think I am.
And, besides, I'm not trying to shut Jill up. I want her to talk to me.
So, maybe that incident influenced me, and maybe you can see something
I don't see, but I don't think this is the source of our problems.
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Jack begins his theory with many presumptions about how therapy works. These presumptions have some foundation in the way new clients think about therapy in American culture. |
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20.
KILIAN
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Jack,
can you see what kind of quandary this is? Your talking to me is based
on where you think I want to go, and then you tell me why what you think
I'm thinking is not right. Now, what would you do in a situation like that?
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This is a key point of Kilian's. He is calling attention to the way in which Jack is continuously presuming the other person's agenda. |
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21.
JACK
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I
don't know how to do it differently. I'm always thinking about where people
are going with what they're saying. Doesn't everybody work this way?
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22.
KILIAN
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I
don't think so. I know that I don't, although I can remember a time when
I did. I learned a different way when I began to see that my conversations
with other people turned out to be mostly conversations with myself, with
a lot of pushing and shoving with the folks who were supposed to be part
of that conversation, but really weren't.
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therapist self-disclosure |
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23.
JACK
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Well,
I just don't know how you do it! I can't imagine it. I mean when people
talk to me, I have to try to figure out where they're coming from. I mean,
right now, I wonder where you're coming from, where you're going with this.
Don't you feel you have some kind of goal in mind? Some kind of point to
make to me? Something you want me to do? I just don't know if I can go
along with this. I'm not crossing it off, I tell you, but I do feel that
it's asking a lot of me, to not try to imagine what a person is saying.
Or maybe I don't understand you. Maybe you need to explain more.
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24.
KILIAN
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Jack,
I'd like to have a conversation with you, right now, without all the interference
of "where you're coming from," and "where you're going." Otherwise, I have
my doubts about the possibility of your establishing a "here" with anyone.
Imagine
driving in a car, and only paying attention to where you've been and where
you're headed next. Did you ever think about what happens to everything
in between?
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25.
JACK
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Okay.
I want to be cooperative, here. Don't think I'm trying to run the
show. I'm just telling you that I think it's a natural thing to try
to think where the other person is going with some point. I guess
most of the time I'm kinda like a chess player who tries to figure out
the other person's moves before they do. You know? But I think,
frankly, that everybody does this kinda thing .But, as I say, I'll
try not to. I'll do the best I can. Can't ask more than that,
right?
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Jack introduces the metaphor of developing converational stratagies on the basis of trying to anticipate other people's converational moves and agendas. |
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26.
KILIAN
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OK,
but what might it take to operate outside of the chess mode?
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27.
JACK
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I
don't know. I'll try, but honestly, I don't know if I can, if I'm honest
about it. I don't really know any other way. Do you operate outside of
the chessmode?
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28.
KILIAN
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I
think I do, but in order to do that I have to always pay attention to what
the chessmode is suggesting I do or think about what is going on. I find
that the chessmode can speak to me most powerfully when I'm either upset
or threatened. So I have to know what it wants me to do in order for me
to figure out how to do something else. And that means running the risk
of discovering whether the chessmode is right, and of being delighted when
it is not right. How does this sound so far?
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29.
JACK
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(takes
deep breath and shakes his head with and lifts his eyebrows) Man!
That must be hard to do! And I can't really see the purpose. I mean
don't you want to know where people are coming from? What they're
trying to do? I mean, I'm not trying to be difficult or anything.
But in here, as the therapist, don't you want to know where I'm coming
from?
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30.
KILIAN
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Jack,
what is the purpose which you can't see?
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31.
JACK
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You
mean what is your purpose? Well, probably you think this will be
good for me, to stop trying to outguess people, but it seems to me it's
so unnatural. I think it's just natural that we all try to figure out other
people's purposes. And even if we try to stop, or if I try to stop, I think
it's probably hopeless. But I'm planning to try. If I find myself that
I am speculating about another person's purpose, your's or Jill's s, because
it just happens even if I don't want it to, do you want me to just keep
it to myself?
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32.
KILIAN
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No,
I'd like to suggest that you say it out loud as that, speculation. You
could say, "The speculation tells me that....," or "I'm speculating that,"
without making a response to the speculation or what the speculation tells
you. So instead of responding based on what the speculation says, you would
first say what the speculation would be. How does that sound?
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Here Kilian is externalizing the speculation in a way that is reminiscent of narrative therapy. |
| 33. JACK | So, if I think Jill is trying to put me down, you want me to say, "The speculation tells me that you're trying to put me down"? Is that what you mean? | |
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34.
KILIAN
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Yes,
or words to that effect. If Jill knows and understands that we're trying
to get a little separation between the speculation and your response, we
might discover some interesting stuff. You could call it "speculation,"
or "Speck," or "the speck thing," whatever. Here's an example. You suggested
saying, "The speculation tells me that you're trying to put me down." Now
imagine adding something like, "Is that right? " Could you imagine doing
that?
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35.
JACK
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(shrugs
unenthusiastically, then sighs) Sounds hard, but I can try it. Sounds really
hard right now, but as I say, I'm really trying here and I think you have
something to teach me. Do I have to talk this way all the time? Or
is this just an exercise for now? I mean, I don't really understand
it exactly, just sort of, and I don't know if I can always say what I want
to say in just the way you want me to. I can try.
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36.
KILIAN
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I
can't ask for any more than that. Let's start here. Do you
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37.
JACK
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No.
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38.
KILIAN
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So
what's it like to be in a conversation, right now, where speculation is
not present? Or does speculation want to creep back in, now that you've
said something without it?
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39.
JACK
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Okay
so far, I guess. I'm supposed to just try not to worry about where you're
going. It's like you're in the drivers' seat, right? And I just sit back
and let you drive. That's cool. I can do that.
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40.
JILL
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(chuckling
she rolls eyes)
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41.
JACK
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(laughing)
I saw that! (Turning to Kilian.) Lead on, man! I'll let you be the boss
for a while. Just help us out, okay? I'm right behind you. If it gets hard,
then I'll talk about "speculation" and what speculation is making me think.
Okay?
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42.
KILIAN
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Jack,
I'm sorry, that's not it. This is not about who's in the driver's seat.
How did you get from my question to driver's seats? I thought I asked you
a simple question. Is it possible speculation came in about what the agenda
might be?
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43.
JACK
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(taken
aback) I guess I was thinking that you were trying to do something for
us and that's why you wanted me to try to suppress my speculation about
what you were trying to do, or Jill was trying to do. I was thinking
that you wanted to do this because you think, maybe that I'm doing something
that is contributing to the problem. (laughing) So I guess you're
right on that one. Speculation came in with that one. Is that
what you mean? I guess this is going to be harder than I thought
it would be. But I'm trying.
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44.
KILIAN
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OK,
that's all anyone could ask. Jill, I have a question for you. What's it
like to see Jack try to unpack speculation from his ways of responding?
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45.
JILL
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Is
this supposed to keep him from always analyzing me?
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46.
KILIAN
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Yes.
Any thoughts about what that might be like for you?
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47.
JILL
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It's
sounds to good to be true, Kilian. I'll believe it when I see it.
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48.
JACK
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Wait
a moment. This is sounding like you people are going to be backseat
driving me on this .I am willing to try it, but I don't want to be
continuously backseat driving me. Can I ask that at least?
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49.
KILIAN
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Jack,
have you any reason to distrust this process so far?
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50.
JACK
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No,
I guess I don't. I just want to protect myself from it.
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51.
KILIAN
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OK
- Jill, could I ask how you made the connection between what we called
speculation and your experience of being analyzed by Jack? And Jack,
could you just become an observer for a little while?
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52.
JILL
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Well,
it seems he psychoanalyzes me all the time. He is always thinking
that there are things going on in my head that I don't tell him about,
like whether or not I am thinking I'll leave him, for example. If I ever
do leave him, and I'm not planning on it, it will be because he psychoanalyzes
me too much and he doesn't listen to me.
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53.
KILIAN
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Was
there anything in my conversation with Jack that seemed Familiar in terms
of the way Jack speaks with you, like the presence of speculation, or the
chessmode, or the time I told him that it was difficult knowing how to
respond to his speculations about me? If it's possible, could you just
describe this in terms of what this may be like for you, and not
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54.
JILL
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Did
I speculate on Jack? I thought I just said he always psychoanalyzes ME.That's
not speculation, is it?
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55.
KILIAN
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I'm
just trying to safeguard things a bit. Things seem a bit tender.
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56.
JILL
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You
want to know what it feels like when Jack psychoanalyzes me? Is that what
you want?
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57.
KILIAN
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No. Let me try again. Rather than
hearing what it feels like when Jack psychoanalyzes you, I'd like to understand
what happens when Jack psychoanalyzes you. What different kinds of situations
would likely include Jack's psychoanalyzing you, what kinds of discussions,
what times of day, any particular days of the week, or if there any specific
topics which seem more likely to include psychoanalyzing. Could you give
that a shot?
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58.
JILL
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(looking
puzzled) He does it all the time.Maybe when he sleeps he stops, but he
starts as soon as he gets up.
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59.
KILIAN
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Can
you recall a time when it didn't happen, and when he was awake?
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60.
JILL
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Yes.
When we first got to know each other, he wasn't very interested in me.
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61.
JACK
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It's
true.
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62.
JILL
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(smiling)
But I was determined to win him.I thought he was the guy for me.I was tired
of quiet guys, the silent types that never wanted to talk with you.Jack
was a guy with lots of energy, and he was cute, too.
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63.
JACK
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(chuckles)
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64.
JILL
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Things
were really good back then. I tell you things were pretty good until
my accident when my front teeth were knocked loose. Somehow when
he insisted on kissing me, no matter what I said, something clicked inside
me. I felt I couldn't trust him. I think the accident changed him
somehow. I don't know why, but it's so weird that he would insist
on kissing me like that.
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65.
JACK
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You just can't let things go, can
you?
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66.
KILIAN
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Jack,
I want to go someplace else with this, and I know that there seems to be
a danger which pops up when Jill begins to speak and you want to say your
piece. Can you tolerate me developing a conversation with Jill? It
would not be a good idea for that to get sidelined by whatever's causing
you discomfort. I would like you to be here while that happens. Can you
do that?
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67.
JACK
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(sighs)
Sure. I can do it. I'll just sit back and make myself. I just hate to hear
it though. It's unfair and it's not right. But I'll do it. I think you
know what you're doing and I'm going to trust that. Just forget I'm
here.
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68.
JILL
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(rolls
her eyes and looks over at Kilian with anticipation)
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69.
KILIAN
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(chuckling)
Now THAT is a challenge! How about if I suggest a job for you? Can
you listen to my conversation with Jill as if you're watching a movie,
and listen to the story of the young woman named Jill?
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70.
JACK
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Yep
.I can do it.
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71.
KILIAN
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Jill,
can we revisit the last couple of things you said?
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72.
JILL
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Okay.
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73.
KILIAN
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The
first thing that caught my attention was your saying, "I thought he was
the guy for me. I was tired of quiet guys, the silent types that never
wanted to talk with you. Jack was a guy with lots of energy, and he was
cute, too."
Can
you remember what it was that told you that Jack was the guy for you?
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I
know it sounds stupid, but I really liked the way he talked. I mean
it. Of course, back then, he didn't psychoanalyze me all the time.
He talked a lot back then, but, I don't know, it didn't drive me crazy.
He wasn't always in my case. I don't think things got really bad
until the incident I told you about when i felt he was trying to rape me.
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75.
JACK
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(exhales
noisely, shakes his head and looks away)
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76.
KILIAN
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Can
you recall what it was about his style of talking which appealed to you?
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77.
JILL
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He
was interesting. He is the first interesting man I have really run
across. But Jack could talk, almost like a woman, it seems, and he
was interesting. I just didn't know how *much* he could talk. (laughs)
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78.
JACK
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(sighs
and shakes his head)
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79.
JILL
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You
see, I'm not a person that really has to talk, but Jack is. I have never
been around anybody like that before .It's not just that he *can*
talk, but that he *has to*.But, back then I had always wanted to be with
a man who could lead a conversation, say, when we went out for dinner
.I see other couples sitting around talking and I wanted to do that.
Jack could do that with me, and it wasn't so hard for me. He always
had something to say, and it was usually interesting.
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80.
KILIAN
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Could
you describe how his ability to talk made it "not so
hard"
for you? What became "not so hard?"
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81.
JILL
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I
don't know. I guess when I was on dates before Jack there was usually
the problem of what to talk about, you know? I don't mean it was always
that way, but it was that way a lot. And with Jack, I could just sit back
and relax. (laughs) It was kinda nice back then. Strange, isn't it?
It's the very thing that drives me crazy now. But I don't think he
was always psychoanalyzing me back then. Maybe that was part of it.
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82.
KILIAN
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Can
you remember what his talk was like before the psychoanalyzing?
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Just
that he was full of interesting things to say that wasn't about psychoanalyzing
me. Jack could tell some funny stories about things that happened
to him, or to someone. He could tell jokes and clown around.
Sometimes he kept me in stitches. I don't remember what all we talked
about back then, but I remember that he kept me entertained -- and I don't
think he psychoanalyzed me at all.
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| 84 KILIAN | Could you say what it was like to be entertained like that? | |
| 85 JILL | It was entertaining and fun.I felt comfortable and happy.It was just nice, but then things started falling apart. | |
| 86 KILIAN | From this distance, how did something so fun, comfortable, and happy fall apart? | |
| 87 JILL | It was probably falling apart before the accident, but it didn't feel like it to me.I think everything goes back to the accident. Really I do. It was so awful for me, and Jack seemed to think it was trivial, that it was nothing, and it hurt me so much -- I just felt like I could suddenly see the real Jack. | |
| 88 KILIAN |
I'd
like to ask a favor of both of you at this point. Or maybe a couple
of favors. The first is that you allow me to question the use of
some of your words, terms like "the real Jack," and other ways of speaking
which might pop up in moments like this.
The
second favor is to ask both of you to consider the possibility that we
are entering a holy space here, one deserving reverence and care.
So rather than "letting it rip," we need to do something much more respectful.
The
third favor is to ask both of you to think about the possibility that there
will now be at least two versions of events in play, and that we're not
trying to find a way to decide who is right or wrong.
I'm willing to spend
as much time as we need to understand what I've just proposed, and I have
to ask each of you not to revert to accusations if we need to clarify our
way of proceeding. |
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| 89 JACK | I don't think I understand where you're trying to go, but I'm willing to let you lead the way. However, I want to say this: I'm not trying to just accuse Jill. It's just that I figure you want to hear how I really feel, not just pretend to be happy with her when I'm not. I'm perfectly able to pretend, but I thought that this was the wrong thing to do. In therapy you're supposed to let it all hang out, so to speak, not be hypocritical. That was my understanding. Is that wrong? | |
| 90 KILIAN | I
think I'm recommending a different type of therapy here, Jack. I'm
not into letting it all hang out, and I'm not into hyprocrisy, either.
Jill, where are you with this? Do my requests make any sense to you? |
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| 91 JILL | It sounds interesting, but I'm not sure I understand it yet. | |
| 92 JACK | The same is true for me.I need you to explain because I thought I knew what you wanted and apparently I don't.How is it that you can want people not to let it all hang out and also not be hypocritical? | |
| 93 KILIAN | What hangs out when it all hangs out? | |
| 94 JACK | (chuckles and looks a little embarrassed) Oh, you know, just telling you what we're really feeling, no faking it to look good and make the other feel good. | |
| 95 KILIAN | Are you familiar with both of those ways of being? | |
| 96 JACK | Yeah, sure. | |
| 97 KILIAN | Could you describe under what circumstances each of those ways seems to predominate? | |
| 98 JACK | When I'm with Jill's mom (laughing, looks at Jill) I'm on my best behavior.I don't let it all hang out.When I'm at work, say, or when a policeman stops me about my driving, I don't let it all hang out.I guess I mostly don't let it all hang out, but I thought, in here, that was what a person was supposed to do.I took a couple of psychology courses when I was in school, and I thought the idea was, you know with Freud and all, that we all screw ourselves up by keeping everything inside. It makes us neurotic. After a while, our neurosis is unconscious, but it still screws us up, and we have to get it off our chests if we are going to overcome it. I guess I believe that. Don't you? | |
| 99 KILIAN | Well,
that brings me back to the question of what the "it" is which is
supposed to be gotten off our chests. You see, we're in a staging
pattern here, prompted by Jill's comment about the "real Jack." And I'm
looking for a way to talk about this, but to talk about it differently
than what the two of you have managed to do up until now.
Would you expect the term "real Jack" to refer to something like "let it all hang out," or "get it off your chest?" |
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| 100 JACK | Yeah, sure. The "real Jack" is the one who gets the truth out, lets it all hang out, gets things off his chest. Is that what you mean? That seems right to me. | |
| 101
KILIAN
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So if we leave these definitions just like this, what hope is there for "the real Jack" and Jill? | |
| 102 JACK | I don't understand. Just tell us what we're doing wrong and we'll do it better, or we the price. I figure you can't really change people, deep down, who they are. But I think I'm doing things right and obviously I'm doing something wrong, or maybe Jill is, and I figure you can tell us what that is. I don't mean to tell you your business about this, but isn't that how it works? I mean I really don't know. It's a mystery to me, but I assume you know. | |
| 103 KILIAN | Jack,
I'd like to ask you a question. Do you see any hope for this relationship
given the way that "the real Jack" has been defined here?
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| 104 JACK | I don't understand. I do hope this relationship can be saved, but I don't understand how it would work. I presume you do. I have read a lot about therapy, actually, mostly in the paper or magazines, but I don't really understand. I mean, I do have some idea of how it works, but I can't see how it would actually work, what would make it work. I don't know if I can put it all in words, but it seems to me that doctors like Freud do therapy by making clients work on their childhoods, and I suspect that doctors like you do therapy by telling people what they are doing wrong. Isn't that right? I don't know why that would work, but people seem to do it that way, according to what I have read, and it must work or people wouldn't go to therapy. | |
| 105 KILIAN | Is there a way you might describe what you think I've been trying to do with you? | |
| 106 JACK | Well, I think you're trying to get me to listen more, to be quieter, and also not to speculate about what Jill is doing too much. Is that right? | |
| 107 KILIAN | Yes. How does that fit with your notion of "the real Jack?" | |
| 108 JACK | I have no idea. I think the real Jack would speculate, frankly, and I don't think you can change that. But maybe it would be good for me not to speculate anyway, and give Jill a chance to be her real self? | |
| 109 KILIAN | Well, I'm wondering whether we can take a look at this whole notion of "real self." For instance, what would you call who you were when you were so engaging and charming with Jill? | |
| 110 JACK | You mean, was that was the real me back then? (looks puzzled) I think it was the real me, at least at the time. I was happy then and really feeling that the future was promising. (chuckles a little at himself) It was the real young Jack, the real Jack prior to growing up and realizing things are not always so easy. | |
| 111 KILIAN | What's
it like to recall the real young Jack as we speak now?
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| 112 JACK | I wish I could get back to being him. I had no idea back then that relationships could even be difficult. And Jill seemed like a piece of cake. I was amazed how much she seemed to like me. I knew she was in love with me before I fell in love with her. I think I enjoyed the way she seemed to enjoy me back then. I loved the way she wanted to listen to me. It seems to me that in my family people had to fight for the floor because everybody wanted to talk. With Jill, well, as she said, she liked to listen, and it really seemed like a match made in heaven to me. | |
| 113 KILIAN | Can I ask what it's like for you to recount those days right now? | |
| 114 JACK | As I say, I wish I could get back to being him. Maybe you can help me, or help us. | |
| 115 KILIAN | Well, I think I can help with that. I'd like to suggest thatyouimagine that as finding a way to bring the young Jack back into yourlife, and back into your life with Jill. Does that sound like somethingyou'd be interested in doing? | |
| 116 JACK | Absolutely. Can you help with that? That sounds just like whatI'm looking for. (chuckles) I miss the old Jack. | |
| 117
KILIAN
|
I'm
certainly motivated to participate in this project. Jill, howdoes
this sound to you? |
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| 118 JILL | I
can't imagine anything more wonderful, than to get the old Jack back.
I have my doubts about it, but stranger things have happened I guess. |
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| 119 KILLIAN | That's a great place to finish this session. I hope that many different discoveries come out of this process. Can we agree that we'll try to start here, unless something more urgent comes up? | |
| 120
JACK
|
Yeah, it's kind of like looking for the fountain of youth, huh? (standing up and looking at Jill a little sheepishly) I wish we could get it all back. I hope I haven't screwed up things too much. | |
| 121 JILL | (glances at Jack as she stands up) Just don't push too hard. Okay? Let it happen at its own speed. |