| 1 KILIAN
|
Well, any ideas where we should pick this
up? Any lingering thoughts from last time? Did any of what
we spoke about come up in the past week? |
|
| 2 JACK: |
Frankly, I don't remember what we were
talking about last week. Do you, Jill? |
...................................... |
| 3. JILL: |
What we seem to talk about each time we're
here. |
|
| 4. JACK: |
What's that? |
|
| 5. JILL: |
Whether I recognize how hard you're trying. |
|
| 6. JACK: |
Well, yeah. (looking at Kilian and shrugging.)
That's important to me. |
|
| 7. KILIAN: |
Jill, is that what you took from our last
session? |
|
| 8. JILL:
|
It just seems like that's all I hear is
how hard Jack's trying. I know you're trying to help,
but it's like there is this radio on and I
can't hear much else, and Jack's the radio. |
|
| 9. KILIAN:
|
Could we develop this notion of a radio?
Do you mean that it's like a radio that is kept
on for background? I know some people who keep the
radio on to make it seem like someone's home all the time.
Any thoughts? |
|
| 10. JILL |
Yes, that's what I meant, only it's too
loud. |
|
| 11. KILIAN |
So the radio's too loud, but would you
say that it's on for background or to make it seem like someone's
home? |
|
| 12. JACK |
(silent, but making faces that show he is
reacting to what she is saying) |
|
| 13.JILL
|
(ignoring Jack's faces and directing her
remarks to Kilian). That's not the picture at all. My picture
was that you're trying to do something, like
have a conversation with a friend, and someone has their
radio on so loud you can't think straight. |
|
| 14. JACK |
(sigh) |
|
| 15. KILIAN |
Any ideas as to how they could be asked
to turn down the volume? |
|
16. JILL
|
Jack just talks too much, and he says the
same things over and over. And as soon as I start to talk he
interrupts me and he says what he has just said. I don't
need to hear it again. I have never heard anybody talk as much
as Jack does and say so little. |
|
| 17. JACK |
(loud sigh) |
|
| 18. JILL |
(continuing) He just doesn't let up. I
mean, right now, this is unusual his sitting here this
long and letting me talk to you. |
|
| 19. JACK |
(shaking his head and looking at the floor) |
|
| 20. KILIAN: |
Jill, may I ask a question about this?
If so, I wonder if it's possible to pay attention to
how surprising it is that Jack is just sitting
here while we talk. Did you expect to say this little when you and
Jack walked in here today? |
|
| 21.JILL: |
(laughing) I admit he is being quiet for
him. You're getting through to him. |
|
| 22. KILIAN |
Me? I thought it was you! After all, I
haven't seen him for a week. You guys have been
living together since our last session, haven't you? |
|
23. JILL
|
Yeah, but this isn't caused by me. He
respects you. He doesn't really respect me. I must say, though,
he has been quieter than usual this week. (She throws
Jack a smile and he smiles back and shakes his head.
It looks like almost an affectionate exchange.) |
|
| 24. KILIAN |
Did I just notice a little something between
you two, or are my eyes playing tricks on me? |
|
| 25. JILL: |
(giggling) I don't have any idea what you're
talking about. |
|
| 26. JACK |
(smiling) Mum's the word. I should say,
though, that there has always been a little something between
us. It's these moments that keep my hope alive. |
|
| 27. JILL: |
(smiling but shrugging) |
|
| 28. KILIAN |
Is there any particular reason why mum
should be the word about these moments? |
|
29. JACK:
|
I'm afraid to touch that. I don't know what
happens. Sometimes it seems that the bad feelings between
us seem to lift for a moment. It's wonderful. Frankly,
it keeps me going. Keeps my hope up. It's like we can
laugh at ourselves, or see past our problems or something. |
|
| 30. JILL |
(nods and smiles) |
|
| 31. KILIAN |
Well, my interest is certainly piqued. Could
I ask you two more about these moments? |
|
| 32. JACK |
Yeah, sure. |
|
| 33. JILL |
(nods) |
|
| 34. KILIAN |
Well, when would the two of you say that these
moments occur, and what makes it more likely that they will
occur? |
|
| 35. JACK |
(smiling) You first, Jill. |
|
36. JILL
|
(smiling and shaking her head, then her sigh
melts a little and she sighs.) It happens, I don't know, when
the fighting between us stops for a second, it just starts
to seem kind of silly. But it doesn't last long. (she stops
talking and looks at Jack.) |
|
| 37. JACK:
|
(looking at Jill) My turn? You want me to tell
it to you straight? It seems to me that you're the one that's
always fighting. Then, suddenly something amuses you or something
and you let your guard down just a little. |
|
| 38. JILL |
(looking at Kilian) There's probably some truth
to that. |
|
40. KILIAN
|
May I let you guys in on something? When Jack
said "tell it to you straight" my heart started racing. I thought,
"Oh no, here we go again." And then Jack mentioned "amuses
you" and "let your guard down just a little," and
you Jill, you mentioned "some truth to that." Do the
two of you have any ideas about what enabled you to stay on the
track of "moments which keep hope alive?" Because you were
able to keep my hope alive just now too. |
|
| 41. JACK |
Interesting, but I don't really understand it. |
|
42. JILL
|
I don't know, exactly. I don't even know what
happened this time. It just seems that sometimes my anger lifts
a little and I feel like my old self. Maybe it's because Jack
has been a little quieter. |
|
| 43. JACK |
I'm going to bite my tongue there, but it's
hard. |
|
| 44. KILIAN
|
Well, whatever it is, I certainly appreciate
whatever it is which allow this conversation to take the shape it's
taking. Jill, could you say a little about your "old
self?" |
|
45. JILL
|
I think I am naturally a more relaxed person
than I am with Jack now. He has me on my guard. If I start
to talk, he talks over me. So I don't start to talk. I'm not
spontaneous with him the way I used to be, and he knows it.
He feels it. And it's true. |
|
| 46. KILIAN: |
Did you just describe your old self or your
present self? |
|
| 47. JILL
|
I don't know what you mean. It's just my real
self. But my real self doesn't always come out with Jack anymore.
It does with other people. It's not dead. And it comes out every
now and then with Jack now. That's what you saw. |
|
48. KILIAN:
|
Well, I was referring to your earlier statement,
when you said, "sometimes my anger lifts a little and
I feel like my old self." I'm curious about whatever
this is, and what you could say about it. Like just now,
you said that that it comes out when your anger lifts, and that it
comes out every now and then with Jack. Is there anything more
about it which comes to mind? |
|
49. JILL:
|
This old self is my true self and it is always
inside me. It just gets blocked when Jack starts talking
fast. I can't think in that situation. He thinks he wins arguments
but I am just confused and angry. It's probably my fault
because I should be able to think on my feet better, but still,
it would be nice if he would make it easier. Then, I
could be my true self with him a little more. |
|
| 50. JACK: |
Your true self is your fun self? |
|
| 51. JILL: |
Yes. I think that's the real me, the way I am
naturally. |
|
| 52. KILIAN |
What kind of things happen when Jack slows down,
and when your true self comes out? |
|
53. JILL
|
It just seems that I can think better and just
be me. And when I'm me, I guess I just know what to say
when I talk with people. I don't have to think about it. When
Jack talks like he does, I just feel like I am
always on the spot or something. He talks so much I can't think
straight! He pushes me so hard I get resentful and I don't even feel
like trying. But then sometimes I know what to say, or know what
to do, and then it's okay. Then I feel like me. Do you understand? |
|
54. KILIAN
|
I think I'm beginning to get a picture, but
I really need your help here. Here is what I've got so
far. You have said that your real self emerges when your
anger lifts, and that it comes out every now and then with
Jack. You also mentioned that you can think better and just be you.
And when that happens, you just know what to say when
you talk with people. You describe this as not having
to think about it. At these times you know what to say,
or know what to do, and then it's okay. And at these times, you feel
like you.
So I'd like to flesh this out a bit more, it that's OK? Can you
say anything about the circumstances in which feeling like
you seems to happen more often? Like what kind of things
need to be in place for this sort of thing to happen?
Does anything come to mind?
|
|
| 55. JACK |
(Sitting back in his chair with his chin down,
as if he has withdrawn somewhat, maybe a lot.) |
|
56. JILL:
|
You know, I don't know what brings it out with
Jack, but I'm my real self with just about everybody
else. Not everybody else, but with most people. It's
really hard with Jack. It seems that the words just start
to form and Jack starts talking over them and I can't hear myself
think! |
|
| 57. JACK: |
(to Kilian) What am I supposed to do? Never
talk? Because it's going to keep her words from forming? |
|
58. KILIAN
|
Well, let's tweak this a bit, shall we? Jack,
I'm going to ask you, at least for now, not to jump to
any conclusions. Okay?
Jill, what do you make of the fact that you're talking like this,
right now, in Jack's presense?
|
|
| 59. JACK |
(sighs loudly, but settles back) |
|
| 60. JILL: |
He's being quiet -- and you're keeping him quiet. |
|
| 61. JACK
|
Oh, come on! (immediately looks at Jack) Sorry!
Go ahead, go ahead. (sighs again and settles back) I'll be
good. You guys talk. I'll listen. That's what you want me to
do. Right? |
|
| 62. KILIAN |
I guess this will become a two way conversation
for a bit. Jack, what tells you that it would be a good
idea to listen now, rather than talk? |
|
63. JACK
|
Well, that's what she has been saying, that
I talk too much.
And now she is saying that if I talk at all she can't even think.
That's what I get out of it, anyway. What do you get out of it? I
think she just wants me to be quiet, so maybe that's what I
should do. Maybe I should. I'm going to do that. You talk to
her. I'm going to shut up and listen. I said I was and I'm
going to do that. Sorry that I broke my own rule here. I just
couldn't resist I guess. It's just that she seems to want to
be the boss here and she can't do it on her own so she is getting
you go side with her. That's what I feel. But it's cool. I
can step back. Maybe I'll learn something. I'm learning something
already. She wants me to stay quiet, keep in my place. I get the
picture.
|
|
| 64. KILIAN |
So whatever it is that's helping you stay quiet,
it's not me, is it? Or, is it me? |
|
65. JACK
|
It's my decision, completely my decision. I'll
stay quiet if I want to. And I will change my mind at any time.
That's insulting that she would say that you're making me do
this! That's just the way she thinks, too. Irritating! And
I think it would be hard for anybody to hear that kind of insult
and just sit with it. I'm trying for now, but (turning to Jill)
I wish you'd just keep the insults out of it. When you
insult people like that you force to answer back. You don't expect
them to just sit with it do you? |
|
| 66. JILL |
(looks at Jack with a slightly amused expression,
and shrugs and looks towards Kilian as if to ask what to do
next.) |
|
67. KILIAN
|
I want to get back to what my conversation with
Jill about her real self, and the presence of her real
self in this conversation. And I want to get back to
Jack about his judgments which tell him to be a listener here.
But before we do that, Jill, can you register that it's Jack who is
in charge of Jack here, and not me? In other words, he just
said, "It's my decision, completely my decision. I'll stay
quiet if I want to." Can we attend to that, and not go down
the other possible tracks which would fit with some of
the other words which Jack used?
|
|
| 68. JILL |
(nods and sort of shrugs - so that she accepts
the request "not to go down that path" - at least for now -
but she hasn't necessarily acknowledged the point.) |
|
| 69. KILIAN |
Should I take that for a "yes?" |
|
70. JILL
|
(Jill shakes her head subtly as if she were
saying "no" but she takes a deep breath and lifts her eyebrows in
a way that makes her nonverbal answer unclear. She might be saying
"I don't believe all this." All of this is very subtle, and pretty
noninterpretable. Then, after a second, she answers outloud.) Yes. |
|
| 71. JACK |
Jill, do you think this is some kind of a joke? |
|
| 72. JILL |
No, I don't Jack. |
|
| 73. JACK
|
Well, you're acting like it. Look, Kilian isn't
controlling me and making me stop talking. We're giving you
a chance to talk. So SAY it, whatever it is you want to say.
Stop making excuses. |
|
| 74. JILL
|
(Jill looks off to the other side, away from
both Kilian and Jack. Sighs. Then she looks back at Jack.)
Jack, did it ever occur to you that I was saying it before you interrupted
me? |
|
| 75. JACK |
(looks at Kilian in utter disbelief.) It's your
move. I don't know what to do with her. |
|
| 76. KILIAN |
Jack, I don't think this is about moves or doing
things with people. Could we take this conversation back to
the point where Jill said "Yes?" |
|
| 77. JACK |
Sure. |
|
| 78. JILL |
(nods)yeah. |
|
79. KILIAN
|
Thank you. So I guess the first thing I want
to say is that I appreciate both of you working this hard to pull
things back the way you just did.
I want to return to our agenda items, which include the topic of Jill's
real self, the presence of her real self in this conversation, and
what I'd like to call Jack's better judgment which helps him
be a listener here.
And I think that we've established that Jack is in charge of Jack, yes?
But first I wonder if you could each describe what it is which helped
you both come back just now?
|
|
| 80. JILL |
I'm just following you. I think you're leading
us somewhere. |
|
81. JACK
|
Yeah, me, too, actually. I'm not sure where
you're leading us, but I'm trying to use my better judgment,
as you say, and let you lead some of the time. (snickers) Is that
what you meant by my "better judgment"? But I feel like sometime
you need to have your attention focused on something you're missing,
too, I guess, and being in control of my own decision to be quiet
or not, I'm planning to make that decision sometimes. That's just
the way it's going to be, because I have a free mind, too. It makes
me feel good that you see that and respect it, that you don't try
to control my judgment. So, even if Jill doesn't always like it,
you don't just try to shut me up if I start to talk, for example. |
|
| 82. JILL: |
(staring at Kilian without expression.) |
|
| 83. KILIAN |
Jack, that doesn't sound like a particularly
friendly comment. |
|
| 84. JACK
|
No, no. I didn't mean anything by it. I just
wanted to affirm what you were saying, that I i am the one making
decisions about what I do, not you. What's wrong with that? But,
I wasn't trying to get in your face. Honest. You misunderstood me. |
|
85. KILIAN
|
Okay. I wonder if we might take some stock of
the situation before we go any further. I'm still interested in hearing
more about Jill's real self, Jack's willingness to listen, and the times
when the two of you get along.
But I wonder what each of you has gotten from our conversation thus
far. Could each of you say something about that?
I could add something here. I was very interested in that moment which
the two of you described as "mum's the word." There was a moment of difference,
but for some reason we seemed to get bogged down. Getting bogged down is
not the worst thing in the world. I think that we established that Jack
is in control of Jack. But I wonder about the way that bogging down can
keep the two of you from doing something better with each other.
And I would say that I don't see either of you as trying to do this,
but as each getting caught in a particular kind of bogging down. I don't
know if I understand it very well, but it seems to occur when either of
you make statements about the other.
Any thoughts?
|
|
| 86. JACK |
(wearing a coy smile) Jill, why don't you go
first? |
|
87. JILL
|
Okay. What I see is that Jack doesn't
want to be controlled, not by me, not by you either. But, he can
be nice when he wants to be. He just doesn't always want to be.
Sometimes he wants to talk and not let me talk but he wants to complain
about it, too, that I don't talk. And he just doesn't get it.
He doesn't get what this does to us, for him to talk so much. And
maybe he doesn't want to get it, because maybe he just wants to be the
one in charge here and he doesn't want to listen to me, but he wants to
complain about it nevertheless. |
|
| 88. JACK |
You through? |
|
| 89. JILL |
Yes, for now. |
|
90. JACK
|
(in a teasing way) Well, I didn't mean "through
forever". (turning to Kilian) I think I have gotten a lot out of
this, actually, even though I must say I find it all insulting, as you
might imagine. But, things are clearer, and that helps. It's
kind of like there is always this fog over there where Jill is but in here
it clears every now and then when she starts to talk. And, I guess
she feels intimidated or something by me, unless I really make it easy
for her to talk, you know, just stay really quiet. But I think in
the house she still wouldn't talk. I mean, I believe that that is
the way she thinks of it, but I think there is more to it than that.
I think she is quiet because she is angry, not just because she is intimidated
by me. |
|
| 91. JILL |
I'm not intimidated by you! |
|
| 92. JACK |
Well, that's what I got out of it. If
I start to talk, you just can't talk. It's like you can't make yourself
interrupt me. Right? |
|
| 93. JILL |
Wrong. It's just that... |
|
| 94. JACK |
If you weren't intimidated you would interrupt.
Go ahead. I'm not going to bite. |
|
| 95. JILL |
Why bother to talk to him? |
|
| 96. JACK |
What? What did I say now? |
|
| 97. JILL |
Why can't you just give me a moment to collect
my thoughts? Is that too much to ask? Why do you pressure me
so? |
|
| 98. JACK |
(turning to Kilian) I really don't see what
the big deal is. All she has to do is say, "Okay, I'll answer you.
How hard is that?" |
|
| 99. JILL |
(to Kilian) Do you think you can understand
my situation? |
|
| 100. KILIAN
|
Jack, we're at an important place here. What
do you make of a situation where someone says "give me a moment to
collect my thoughts?" I'm interested in what those thoughts
might be. How about you? |
|
| 101. JACK |
Yeah, I guess. I guess I'm a little nervous
to hear them, too. (deep breath) I mean, if she hasn't talked
to me all this time, what is she saving up to say? See what I mean? |
|
| 102. KILIAN
|
Sure. Could we move around this a little? Let's
say that your nervousness could talk, and that it had ideas about
what Jill would say. What would that nervousness
predict that Jill would say once she had collected her thoughts? |
|
| 103. JACK |
That she's going to leave me. |
|
| 104. KILIAN |
And what reasons does the nervousness
use to buttress that position? |
|
| 105. JACK |
That she's bored with me, not interested in
me, not interested in what I have to say. |
|
106. KILIAN
|
Jack, I think we're onto something important
here, but I've just noticed that we've run out of time. I would hope
that we could continue our conversation about nervousness and
its ways. And I would ask you to see if you can notice
how nervousness enters your life between now and our next session.
Could you do that?
And Jill, I'd ask you to serve as a witness for this new exploration
of Jack's. Would you be up for that?
|
|
| 107. JILL |
I don't know quite what that means, but I guess
so. |
|
| 108. JACK
|
It means that he talks to me about my nervousness
and you listen. Would you be willing to do that? At least I
think that's what he means. (turning to Kilian) Is that right? |
|
109. KILIAN
|
Yes, but in a certain way. Jill would listen
with an ear toward what is sparked in her listening, what she finds remarkable
or surprising, and away from offering commentary about Jack. Rather, Jill,
you might have something to say about what it is like to hear Jack and
I talking about nervousness in his life.
How does that sound?
|
|
| 110. JACK |
Sounds good to me. How about you, Jill?
Does that sound good to you? |
|
| 111. JILL |
I'm not sure I understand it, but I'm sure Kilian
will help me. Won't you? |
|
| 112. KILIAN |
Absolutely. See you next week. |
|
| 113. JACK |
(standing up with Jill) Good we'll be
here. |
|
| 114. JILL |
See you next week. |
|