The Case of Jack and Jill

Jack and Jill: Session One

This case is part of a series of imaginary therapy cases being constructed on the PMTH listserv for analysis and study of the therapy process on PMTH. The transcripts are being composed collaboratively by professional therapists. Click here to return to the TOC for this transcript series.
reflecting team (led by Kilian Fritsch,
team included Marsha McDonough, Val Lewis, Riet Samuels)
second session (with Taylor)
third session with Kilian Fritsch

introduction:	Jack calls Taylor up for an appointment. He volunteers that he is having problems with his wife, that she is not sufficiently available to him sexually. When they make love, she doesn't care anything about his body, or much of anything. She works as a secretary, but when she comes home she doesn't seem interested in the house or being with him. She talks on the phone with her girlfriends a lot. He loves her, but he doesn't know what else to do. Recently he has been doing all the housework, cooking most of the dinners. She seems completely disinterested. It's a real crisis. Something has o be done. "Yes," he said. His wife was willing to come in, too. When they arrived in Taylor's waiting room, he could see that Jack and Jill were in their late twenties. One noticeable feature about them is that Jack is much shorter than Jill. Jack is about 5 foot 6. Picture him looking like the younger brother in Frazier, except that he is much shorter. So, he is a small man. Picture Jill looking like the movie star Ann Heche. So, both are blond, thin attractive people but Jack is noticeably shorter. Jack is dressed in jeans. He is wearing a light blue cotton shirt, tucked in and a bomber jacket. Jill is wearing a simple figured dress with the hem just above her knees. She looks a bit more dressed up than he is. She even has stockings and small heels. There is a little swish in her walk, not much. Imagine Taylor talking with Jack and Jill for a few minutes at the beginning of the session before starting the tape recorder, with their permission. In this segment of the session, Taylor learned Jack is a computer programmer Jill works in an dental office in a kind of secretarial position. She types letters, and also makes sure the coffee room is fully supplied. Jack has a bachelor's degree in computer programming. Jill was in college for one year and then dropped out and got a job. Jack is a bit nervous in his movements. Jill is laconic, and a little passive in her style most of the time although she seems to pay attention and show interest. When she speaks she changes her body langauge and starts to look agitated. It is as though speaking takes effort.	.
	The session began for about ten minutes when Taylor decided to tape the session. During that ten minutes Jack has done almost all the talking. Jill sits quietly and sullenly. Jack has just said, "She seems like she just doesn't care. I do everything. I am doing all the housecleaning now, mopping the floor, washing the dishes, making the beds. everything. Yet she doesn't want to have anything to do with me. This is our marriage! I keep waiting for her to come to her senses, but she just doesn't.	.
1 TAYLOR	Jack, you want her to come to her senses, you say? What would she look like?	.
2 JACK	I know, Doc, you probably think this is all me. Sigh. I guess she'd just wipe that look off of her face. I want her face to show she loves me, of course. I want her to at least be respectful.	.
3 JILL	interrupting) Tell him, please that I don't have a switch to turn on my sexuality.	.
4 TAYLOR	I'd be glad to do that, Jill, but please tell me how. I don't think you want me to say it like that, "She doesn't have a switch."	.
5 JILL	(sighs and looks away)	.
6 JACK	That's the look! Did you see that? She just gives a dirty look and pretends she's off by herself! Sometimes I think I'm really a fool to hang around this woman - but the truth is I'm still in love with her. I think she's the most beautiful woman in the world, tome, anyway.	.
7 TAYLOR	Love by nature can make fools of us. It was probably a good thing to be foolish and in love - but now what?	.
8 JACK	I don't understand. I AM in love with her. Are you saying she's not in love with me? She wants ME to be loving. She is just unwilling to give to me. I don't know why she even married me.	.
9 JILL	You were different then. Maybe I shouldn't have married you. I just didn't know any better.	.
10 JACK	JACK: (turning to TAYLOR) So you're saying that she's not in love with ME?	.
11 JILL	(interrupting) How can I be in love with you? Look at how you treat me.	.
13 JACK	What can we do, doc? How can this thing be fixed. Can you help us?	.
14 TAYLOR	Let's talk some more. I want to know what you want from the relationship, Jack.	.
15 JACK	I want a wife who respects my needs	.
16 JILL	(interrupting) Well, as I say, I want a husband who respects my needs and doesn't think marriage and sex should just be for him.	.
17 JACK	See, she stopped there. It's because I treat her good in most ways.	.
18 JILL	No, you're on my case about everything. You're not good to me.	.
19 TAYLOR	You're telling me what's wrong. Let me ask again, what do you want out of a Relationship?	.
20 JACK	Yeah, I see your point. We do get into it. This is the same argument we have all the time. Hmmm. I guess what I want is a woman who loves me, who is willing to put some energy into the relationship, not rely on me for everything. I want a woman who hears my complaints.	.
21 TAYLOR	So, if you had that, what would it be like with her?	.
22 JACK	It would be beautiful. We'd live together like a loving couple in a clean house, good food, and make love every night. (Here he laughs good naturedly - but he is looking at you, not at her.)	.
23 JILL	Well, that sounds good, but what he would really like is for me to keep the house clean HIS way, and he wants me to cook the food he likes, and make love his way, without paying any attention to what I want.	.
24 TAYLOR	And, you, what do you want in a relationship, Jill?	.
25 JILL	I want a relationship with a man who loves me. And to me that would mean he would give me more space to be me.	.
26 TAYLOR	And, if you had it like you wanted it, what would he be like?	.
27 JILL	What would he be like? He'd be nice to me. I'd clean up the kitchen one night my way, and he would let me without complaining. Say I'd fix him lasagna. He loves my lasagna. It's the only thing I have ever cooked he really likes.	.
28 JACK	It's true. It's the only thing she can cook that I like.	.
29 TAYLOR	But you like that?	.
30 JACK	Yeah. It's good.	.
31JILL	Then, we would drink a glass of wine and talk and he would be gentle. He might ask me to put on a teddy, for example, and if I said, no, he would be okay with it. But he wouldn't be so rough with me. That's the main thing. This is what this guy is like! He's a bear! He's that way in bed, too. I don't like making love to a bear. What woman would?	.
32 JACK	Unfair! (turning to you) Honest to God, doc, I'm just trying to get a response out of her. She's like a dishrag, like a dishrag trying to hide under the bed. I don't want to be a bear. I just don't know what to do with her. She's not responsive like an ordinary woman. I don't think she's normal.	.
33 TAYLOR	Wow! Easy to see how your have hurt feelings and disagreements. Really take you both away from yourselves and each other. How would you like to proceed??	.
34 JACK	What do you mean? Aren't you supposed to show us how to proceed?	.
35 TAYLOR	[smiles] -- ah, a bit of a puzzle, eh? Well, let me re-ask and change the question a bit. Help me understand how you would like to move off from this point. What you both want to establish. Maybe - to throw out a metaphor - it's like I'm a tour guide - I hopefully know something about the terrain, but it's really helpful for me to have an idea where you'd like to go. That's how I meant the question. As we start talking I'm sure I'll have some ideas for you that I'll certainly share with you.	.
36 JACK	So, you're going to make us do the work, are you? (laughs) How is this going to work. You're supposed to be the expert. We're just a couple of screwed up people seeking answers from you. How about giving us some advice. We need advice.	.
37 TAYLOR	Ok Jack - I see you're quite capable of giving me a complicated response. Great! So, Yes, I'm going to "make you" do the work, we can certainly talk about my expertise, and what would you like some advice on? If I have some to offer, you'll have it.	.
38 JACK	I guess what I really want is some support, here. It's embarrassing for me to tell you all I have done to try to keep my marriage together, and how little Jill does in return. I am at my wits end with her. Should I just back off and not push her for sex? I feel if I do that she will never come around and I can't stand a marriage that is so onesided. Don't you agree she is being unfair to me? After all, when you marry a guy, you kind of agree that you want to make love to him more than once a month, and with a little more enthusiasm than she shows. And she complains that I'm not nice to her, that I'm not loving, but it's basically because she isn't nice to me. She has me doing all the work.	.
39 JILL	(sitting quietly and suspiciously)	.
40 TAYLOR	I think it's time to consult with Jill. What do you especially want her to comment on??	.
41 JACK	I assume that if she had anything to say, she'd speak up.	.
42 JILL	I want to see if TAYLOR is going to be able to MAKE Jack do anything. (turning to TAYLOR) and shaking her head with a chuckle. Jack's pretty stuborn.	.
43 TAYLOR	Jill, I imagine my luck at making Jack do anything will be even worse than yours! He's not in love with me! I'm glad you recognize his stubbornness. How evenly matched are the two of you??	.
44 JACK	Wait a minute!	.
45 JILL	No, Jack, you wait a minute! He's talking to me, Jack. You've had your turn.	.
46 JACK	Okay, okay.	.
47) JILL	Now, what did you want to know? How evenly the two of us are matched? Well, frankly I think I'm stronger than he is. I know he thinks he's tough and that he can break me, but he really can't.	.
48 JACK	What is this?	.
49 JILL	I'm just telling the truth.	.
50 JACK	(To TAYLOR) I've never heard this before. (turning to Jill) Do you think this is some kind of game.	.
51 JILL	(rolls her eyes and gives a friendly look to TAYLOR) See what I mean? He's pretending that he's not playing a game, that this isn't just his trying to get his way.	.
52 JACK	Doc, I can't believe you're going to let her talk like this. This is crap! Pure crap! I'm not playing any game. I have been saying that I'm the one doing all the work, and I am trying to have a normal sexual life with her, too. I'm trying to make this relationship work. She's the one playing the game, holding back. I think she is running a real trip on us.	.
53 JILL	(stares at TAYLOR with a detached smile.) This will go on forever if you let it.	.
54 TAYLOR	Well first of all, I totally agree, this will go on forever if we let it. The question then becomes - what would you like to replace it with??? Jack, you said you never heard those ideas from Jill before.. Now that you have, what do you think? You're invited to use this opportunity to try to have a better-than-normal sexual life, and to make this relationship really work... Go for it!	.
55 JACK	What? That's what I want you for. I don't know what in the hell you are doing. If you're going to side with her like that, how can you help both of us? Therapists aren't supposed to side with one person. What kind of therapist are you?	.
56 JILL	(sitting quietly but looking very attentive)	.
57 TAYLOR	Wow Jack -- I though having a healthy sexual relationship and making this relationship work were things you wanted!? I'm merely suggesting that how you go about talking with your wife - both now and in general will bring you closer, or take you farther from your goals. And don't worry, there'll be plenty of time to attend to her. I'm wondering if you could use some help to get started? Tell me, historically, what have been your best techniques when you really wanted to reach out and tap a bit of the compassionate, loving, caring Jill???	.
58 JACK	No, no. If you have some ideas I'm glad for you to tell me what I should do. That's what I'm paying you for. How I have tried to reach out and tap a bit of the compassionate, loving, caring Jill? Believe me, Doc, it's not available to me. I don't know how to do it. Maybe you can tell me. I don't swear that I can succeed at it, but believe me, I'll give it full consideration. I just hope you have some good ideas on this. But it's your show. Please, go ahead.	.
59 TAYLOR	Jack - it can't be my show - it's your life. You said though that it's not available to you and you don't know how to do it. I have two trains of thought and I'm not sure which to follow - let me throw them both out and see what you both think. I'm curious first of all about how in the past, you found a way to get Jill to fall in love with you? Secondly, I was just wondering if you mean you have trouble right now touching the part of you that's loving & compassionate. I can understand how it'd feel impossible to tolerate that much openness & vulnerability. Is there anything to that idea??	.
60 JACK	(Sighs and shakes his head) I don't know if you understand the situation, Doc. I have tried everything I know how to do. (silence for about 15 seconds while Jack looks off to the side apparently in thought) It's just disappointing to me that you can't see all that I'm doing, how unfair this whole thing is, how stubborn she is being.	.
61 JILL	I'm not the only one being stubborn here!	.
62 JACK	Just let me talk, Jill. I am trying to answer the guy. Give me a minute. Okay?	.
63 JILL	Okay.	.
64 JACK	Let's see. You asked how I found a way to get Jill to fall in love with me? I didn't. She was in love with me. She chased me. She'll tell you that.	.
65 JILL	You were different back then.	.
66 JACK	Of course, I was different. You were in love with me! Now, just be quiet for a moment. Please! I can't even remember what the guy asked me.	.
67 JILL	Okay, okay. (looks at TAYLOR and rolls her eyes)	.
68 JACK	Let's see. You wanted to know if I could touch the part of myself that was loving and compassionate with Jill. (silence again) Well, I just can't see it. I am loving and compassionate. I don't know what else I can do. (silence) I don't know, maybe there is something to this. She gets so stubborn I just can't feel compassionate anymore. She won't do her part. She still turns me on, though. How can you be compassionate with a woman that won't clean the house or go to bed with you? I'm doing everything. She never does anything around the house. Could you handle that and be compassionate? I think you're asking too much of me, Doc. I don't know that this is going to do us any good.	.
69 JILL	That's right! Just give up.	.
70 JACK	(Shrugs and gives a knowing look to TAYLOR.) I'm trying here, Doc. I think you don't understand how hard this woman is.	.
71 TAYLOR	Well Jack, maybe you're right. Maybe I don't know well enough how difficult it is or how much and what types of things you've tried - everything you can think of ... but it'll help me help you if I have some idea what types of things you've already tried & to what degree, if any, they've worked... I'm also curious whether you, Jill, have been aware of how Jack has been trying - or has it escaped you...??	.
72 JACK	Well, in the beginning things just went naturally. We loved each other, and Jill was very responsive and loving, very caring. You might even say she initiated our relationship. I think she fell in love more than I did at first. But then, once that happens, I think it just inspires a couple to be in tune with each other. I really don't know what happened. That was three years ago. I think we had some troubles when Jill had a car accident. She was in the hospital for weeks. She's okay, now, but that was hard. She was in pain for a while. I suspect I didn't know how bad her pain was. I wish I had taken care of her more then, but you know, you do what you think is best at the time. I thought she needed to get up more, do things. That's the way I am.	.
73 JILL	(shakes her head and looks away).	.
74 JACK	See, you can see she still resents that. She's a person that carries grudges. There is no way, sometimes, to get her to give them up. I don't like that. A person has to put things behind them and go on, or you just never get anywhere in life. That's what I believe.	.
75 JILL	(to TAYLOR) The accident was a big thing. I suffered a whiplash and a herniated disk, but bigger than that it threw me into a depression and Jack couldn't handle it. You ask if I'm aware of how Jack has been trying. This is pretty new that he's trying, but he's still not listening to me. He still doesn't care what my feelings are. He just has this progam that if he makes the house clean and makes me make love to him then everything will be okay.	.
76 TAYLOR	Well, obviously it'll take way more than that for things to be OK. So, it sounds like something big happened around this accident, is that right?? Sounds to me like the two of you are really not that far apart on what happened after the accident. I find myself wondering what remaining injuries - to your relationship - need to be healed -- but I'm aware that's my idea & not yours - so feel free to reject it if it doesn't fit and use your own ideas	.
77 JILL	Here's what happened. I was driving on the freeway. I knew there was something wrong with my car, but Jack had assured me it wasn't dangerous. And suddenly my car just stopped. Right in the middle of the freeway! It froze!	.
78 JACK	The differential went out. We had had it checked and the mechanic assured me nothing was wrong. She really blames me for this.	.
79 JILL	I depended on him to do certain things. But I should have known better. I could feel that there was something wrong with this car. He wouldn't listen to me. He belittled me for thinking it. "You don't know what you're talking about," he told me. Well, so, I suddenly stopped and it threw me forward and I knocked my teeth loose, and knocked half of my other front tooth off, I have had it crowned, and then this car hit me from behind and it caused this whiplash. An ambulance came. I was in terrible shape. I was in the hospital a couple of days. I should have stayed longer, but hospitals are so crowded nowadays. It was awful. But the bad part is that when I came home, JACK wanted to make love. He was completely unsympathetic with where I was coming from!	.
80 JACK	Shaking his head. I admit, I shouldn't have pushed for that. But, give it up, Jill! It's been a year! You've had your tooth fixed. It cost $700 and it looks fine. These things just happen. And you're wrong. I couldn't have done anything. You're always...	.
81 JILL	He's too busy defendng himself to pay attention to what I'm feeling. Can you see that?	.
82 JACK	It's been a year, Jill, and you're still carrying a grudge. Besides, I don't see you bending over backwards to understand my troubles.	.
83 TAYLOR	Let me share an impression with you and see what you think. Just based on what I'm hearing so far, it sounds like there were already some trouble spots in the relationship before the accident - but it sounds like the accident may have "hardened" some already "hard" feelings. Then, it also looks to me like the two of you are caught in some cycle of criticism & defense - that doesn't lend itself to healing hurts or moving on. Does that make sense? Does that feel "right" to you? Does it leave out anything important???	.
84 JACK	I'm not saying there was anything wrong before the accident.	.
85 JILL	But I am. (brief silence) The accident just made it clearer to me. You still don't know how hard that was for me. Do you? I still remember it. You were trying to kiss me when my teeth were loose!	.
86 JACK	(scrunching his forehead with a look of not understanding) You're making it sound worse than it was, Jill.	.
87 JILL	(Jill is not responsive to Jack. She is looking down, biting her lip and shaking her head 'no'.)	.
88 JACK	(turning to Taylor) I don't know, Doc. To me, Jill is the woman I want to be married to all my life. But I don't know how to make this work. I hope you can help us.	.
89 JILL	(still looking down) It's like a broken record.	.
90 JACK	(to TAYLOR) What do you mean, what did you say? Caught in a cycle of what? You think we're caught in something?	.
91 TAYLOR	I think so. Let me qualify that a little bit - that I'm mainly talking about what I've observed as you all have been talking during this visit. I think several opportunities to better understand each other and advance the relationship have been missed. I don't know it that's representative of how you usually interact - or if it matches your experience of things -- and both of those are important qualifications. But I wonder what you think about the idea?? We're nearly out of time for this visit -- so it'd be helpful for me to know whether that's an idea worth pursuing further, or whether it misses the mark -- or if either of you have thought of anything else that seems important that we would need to either touch on it briefly today - or in a more concentrated way in our next visit.	.
92 JACK	This isn't how we usually interact. Mostly it is me trying to get Jill to talk to me. She just sort of slips away emotionally into her old world. It's like she doesn't really care that our relationship is just falling apart. This is the most she has talked with me in a long time. But, I guess, if we do talk, it's kind of like this. I know these issues are there. We have talked about them enough that I know that. But she hasn't told me enough about them that I udnerstand them. I just do the best I can do. I am trying to make things work here. And, what did you say, do we have some issue to bring up before we leave? Do you think there is something abnormal about us? Have you met people with problems like ours before?	.
93 TAYLOR	I see what you mean about the differences between your description and how I've seen you intereact here. But I've also seen, just in your most recent description - some examples of what I've been observing throughout the session. For example, when you said "It's like she doesn't really care that our relationship is just falling apart", I could imagine Jill feeling shoved away - Jill feel free to correct me if that's not right. As to your questions -- I certainly have seen people with similar concerns before - but before I can answer questions about whether you're normal - I need to know your definition of normal.	.
94 JILL	uh, (looks away). I don't know what I'm feeling. Sometimes I don't care if he pushes me away. Sometimes he just makes me so unhappy I want him to push me away. (starts to cry)	.
95 JACK	See! She cries but who knows...	.
96 JILL	Jack, would you just give me a minute! Just ONE minute! Geez.	.
97 JACK	Okay! The queen speaks! Give her a minute! I was just saying that you're crying and we don't know why you're crying, do we Doc?	.
98 JILL	Just give me a minute. (She starts to break down more with tears and crying sounds.)	.
99 JACK	(To Taylor) I don't know what the Hell she's crying about!	.
100 JILL	(pulling herself together). I wish you'd just be quiet for a minute.	.
101 JACK	Go ahead. Talk!	.
102 JILL	I don't know what to say. I feel on the spot. I just feel that I want to go crawl in a hole sometime. (sigh) But if you want me to talk, Jack, you gotta keep your mouth shut for a few minutes.	.
103 JACK	I said okay.	.
104 JILL	(sigh) I don't know. Sometimes I guess feel I just can't do what Jack wants me to. He wants me to talk, but the words just aren't there for me. (starts to cry again, but gently) I do want my marriage to work. But I have always been a person who can take care of myself if people will just leave me alone and let me do it. With Jack, I guess he makes me feel always pressured. I feel on the spot. I just can't do it. (starts to cry)	.
105 JACK	(whispering quietly to Taylor as if Jill can't hear him, and with a look of bafflement and wonder) I've never seen her do this. She's actually trying to explain herself. Amazing. You have something special for her to try to explain herself.	.
106 JILL	I heard that!	.
107 JACK	It's too late for us to get into this. What time is it? Jill's timing isn't all that good. It's already 5 minutes after the hour. We should have gotten into this earlier. When can we come back, Doc? I want to hear what Jill has to say. This has got to be the most she has ever talked. (Jack is standing up.) What timing, Jill!	.
108 JILL	Is it that late?	.
109 JACK	(To Taylor) So, when do you want us to come back?	.
110 TAYLOR	Wow! I suggest we meet again in a week or so -- Jack I hope you can appreciate the openness that Jill just showed -- she really needs your help to make that feel welcome --- Do you ever have trouble getting a song out of your head? There's a song I hope you get into your head that stays with you in the next week or so -- it's that Otis Redding Song "Try a Little Tenderness" Do you know it??? By the way - remember the "Reflecting Team" we talked about - They'll have some things to share with us when we meet again.	.

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