Elmer and Ellen are characters invented by the therapists in the community of Postmodern Therapies (PMTH) in order to explore the communicational dynamics of people with a particular type of sexual conflict. This particular transcript was written by Riet Samuels, Helen Shoemaker, Nigel Glaze, and Jerry Shaffer. Some writers contributed to both parts. The particular dynamic is that Ellen is not very interested sex with Elmer, and has not been since the birth of their only child six years ago. Their story is emerging through the enactment of a series of conversational settings and incidents. (You can read about earlier accounts of their relationship in the November 2000 edition of PMTH NEWS.) For this conversation, Elmer has fixed a spaghetti dinner with the idea of trying to help heal the rift between them. The discussion follows:
1	Elmer: How was your day?
2	Ellen: Gee, you don't usually seem very interested in my day. Are you trying to get me into bed? (smiling)	Ellen is not very giving in this scene.
3	Elmer: You bet I am (smiling). Look, Elaine, you know I love you. I also have always found you terribly attractive, and still do. I wonder if the same goes for you. Don't be afraid to hurt my feelings if you don't find me attractive. I just need to know. How can we improve the relationship stuff between us? At times I get insecure like I think you do you, and need to know I'm wanted and needed.	Elmer is openly conciliatory, making a big effort to overcome Ellen's apparent animosity.
4	Ellen: (sigh)
5	Elmer: What does that sigh mean?
6	Ellen: Oh, I don't know. It's just that most of my days I spend having to be so together, so strong, so independent. It makes me strong, but I think it also makes me feel guarded. I am just so busy, I just very little space to drift, to wander in my imagination, to just be. I just have a very hard time letting myself get loose like this, and if I were to be intimate with you I would have to loosen all my guardedness. I'd have to soften the toughness that I count on just to make it through every day. I feel like I have to get unhinged in a certain way... It's hard to explain. (sigh) Do you understand at all?	But she does talk about her feelings. She seems to feel very overworked and hungry for time to relax and drift.
7	Elmer: You know, I've never really appreciated how you have to be so strong and together. Sometimes I'm suppose I'm feeling selfish, and I just don't see that your on your guard. I want you to feel looser. Sometimes I even have a hard time understanding what you're telling me because you are so guarded -- and I'm sorry for that. Still, I really appreciate that you have been able to let me know that it's hard to let your guard down. It's nice to think of you as a friend as well as someone I find very attractive in many ways. Ah, it looks like you're through with dinner. Can I make you a drink?	Elmer shows her appreciation, talks about being selfish, offers to make her a drink.
8	Ellen: A drink? You know what a drink does to me. I have a million things to do tonight, as always. A drink? That's just like you! Irresponsible!	But even the offer of a drink makes Ellen suspicious that Elmer is just trying to get her into bed.
9	Elmer: sorry sweetheart, (Chuckle) as a matter of fact what was it that a drink does to you again? can I help you with those million things you've got to do?	Getting Ellen to loosen up and be sexual is certainly a part of what Elmer is doing, but he is also offering to do things for her.
10	Ellen: Typical! "Can I help?" If I say, "No you can't help. But you can take over responsibility for more," does that make sense to you? Do you know what I'm saying?	Ellen's not in a mood to negotiate. She wants Elmer to do these things without negotiation.
11	Elmer: Yes, I hear you.
12	Ellen: As for what a drink does to me, it makes me irresponsible, that's what it does to me. And then nothing gets done around here.
13	Elmer: wow! Your really glowing.
14	Ellen: Am I?
15	Elmer: Yes. You know, you may be right about me being irresponsible and all that. Sometimes I don't know how to respond to you. I was thinking we could improve things between us. Maybe I was wrong in thinking that? What do you think?
16	Ellen: Elmer, I would like to try to improve things, I really would. I just hope it isn't too late.	She worries that improving the relationship may be too late.
17	Elmer: If you really would like to improve things, I think you have to say what's on your mind.	Elmer encourages her to talk about her issues.
18	Ellen (sighs): OK, I'll try. But this isn't easy for me. You said before that you find me terribly attractive. Why should I believe you? Is that just a line?	She says she doesn't feel very attractive.
19	Elmer: In part it's just a line, of course I want to get you in bed- I'm a man full blooded as you know, but I'm also a close friend. Saying what's on you mind would be a good idea but I get the impression that I'm not going to like it.
20	Ellen: Look, Elmer, it hasn't anything to do with you. It's me. It has to do with the fact that there are some things I don't like about myself. And you can't do anything about that.	Ellen actually takes responsibility for her problem at this part, saying that the problems is hers, not Elmer's.
21	Elmer: Maybe it hasn't anything to do with me and perhaps I should keep my nose out of your business? But, Ellen, I care for you, and when I hear that there are things you don't like about yourself it makes me think you're a bit down, maybe self-critical. What is it that you're feeling about yourself?
22	Ellen: Elmer, this is hard for me.... Let me see.... You said you find me attractive. Would you say I'm not as attractive as I used to be? Be honest.	She talks about not feeling as attractive as she used to feel.
23	Elmer: If you really want me to be honest then neither of us is getting any younger. Physically I'm not the man I was some years ago you've perhaps noticed. (chuckle) To me being attractive is more than just physical, it's something to do with that glow, the way your eyes shine. As you can see I'm bitten quite bad really; but that's being honest. You Know lately, I have noticed something different and I worry that your interested in someone else.	Elmer talks about still being attracted to her.
24	Ellen: I do appreciate your straightforward attitude about our getting older. Sometimes I don't feel very good about the fact that I have changed physically but it is much harder for me to talk about that than it seems to be for you. Just to put your mind at ease, there is no one else.
25	Elmer: Your right that I don't think too much about my changing appearance. What is it about your appearance that concerns you?
26	Ellen: First, Elmer, I am very pleased that you like the way my eyes sparkle and that your changing appearance doesn't seem to bother you, but I am definitely not happy that I gained fifteen pounds when Jeremy was born -- and I just cannot seem to lose it. Frankly, although I feel healthy and the doctor says I am, I just cannot imagine myself in that lovely little Victoria Secret incentive thing you got me last month let alone naked with you. I suppose you wonder why I always wear that old granny gown when we have sex. Well, now you know. -- Maybe my discomfort is more about how I feel about my changing appearance rather than how I imagine you might feel about it.	She says she has gained 15 pounds and isn't pleased about it.
27	Elmer: I never realized you were so worried about having gained weight, are you sure it's fifteen pounds? I thought you were feeling low because I have, I suppose neglected you as a woman, we haven't gone out together for a while but I've understood this as part and parcel of the parental package at the moment. Like the weight thing you can't expect to be a glamour model after having a baby can you! (pause) Your are a great mum. I want to be able to make up to you- you see recently I've changed. I'm trying to get some of the priorities in life back to how they should be.	Elmer consoled her and indicated it didn't matter to him.
28	Ellen: But I want to feel attractive, and maybe it's just me--I don't like myself with this extra weight. Being a mom is another part of me, but it doesn't make up for not feeling good in my own skin.	But Ellen wanted to feel attractive.
29	Elmer: I really love you Ellen. It's really good that we can have a little time to talk about our relationship together. I don't know what you think about this but sometimes when the focus is on Jeremy I feel this gets between 'us'. I've been selfish at times and left you with the burdens of child care more than I should have. You being a great mum- sometimes I just leave you to it. But, Sometimes I wonder if we leave each other to it -too much. Do you remember the fun we had getting together? We had some really fun times didn't we.	Elmer ponders things he might do.
30	Ellen: Elmer, you're a dear, sometimes. I feel so selfish thinking of my own problems and ignoring you. But let me get something else off my chest. I think another reason I have not been too enthusiastic about having sex is that I have been kind of angry with you. I mean, why be nice to you when you're not being helpful? I've had to take all the responsibility since Jeremy was born. And, frankly, I just don't feel sexy, with this weight, being tired. So, why be nice to you when I feel you're not being nice to me?	Ellen calls him a dear but adds that she has been a little angry with him for not helping more.
31	Elmer: Sorry, about not helping, I was wondering if we were to do something together as a pursuit a joint exercise activity, that might help us feel closer and may be help with the weight for both of us? what do you think? It's only a suggestion. You might not want any ideas.	Elmer promises to help.
32	Ellen: That sounds great, Elmer! I am so relieved we are talking about this. I think if we were to do something together it would be good fun and if it is physical, we can get some exercise, too ..what did you have in mind? And what will we do with Jeremy? Another thing, maybe you can help with some good light cooking a few nights a week. Would that be too much to ask?	Ellen thinks about what to do with Jeremy.
33	Elmer: Well you might have better ideas than this but I thought that initially we might try jogging as it's flexible with getting a sitter for Jeremy. Grace the teenager from over the road said she was interested in sitting if we ever needed it. I think she wants the extra cash for college. As for cooking that sounds exciting, I might need your help with the lay out of the kitchen but I'll give it a go . I was wondering though would you mind doing my shirts if I'm cooking as I can't stand the rush in the morning trying to iron them.	Elmer has a plan. Moreover, he offers to help cook dinners. He also asks if she'd mind ironing his shirts.
34	Ellen: I really appreciate the sentiment of wanting to help me, and I always feel better when Grace watches Jeremy for us. She is so dependable. But don't act so helpless, Elmer. It won't take you long to get the lay-out of the kitchen. I really need you to have some initiative here, not just give me help. If I can really count on you to take some of the pressure off of me, it does make me feel better.	Ellen appreciates the sentiment but she is unhappy about the request that she iron his shirts.
35	Elmer: Good.
36	Ellen: On the other hand, trying to get me to iron the shirts...that goes in the opposite direction. If I'm not doing one thing, I'm doing another. ... What about you ironing your own shirts over the weekend for the whole week? Can you do that?
37	Elmer: Of course I can iron at the weekend but I thought you wanted the weekends kept special for us as a family, not just doing the chores. Sorry if I misunderstood. We seem to have so little time together, the weekends are nice to do things together. The problem seems less to do with who does what and when but how can we relate in the ways that we used to? It's really nice to hear you appreciate me, you know I'm willing to really try hard to please, I'm a bit short of the initiative stuff but...(walking towards Ellen and placing his arm on her tenderly) You smell really nice tonight. We could try to get close?	Elmer agrees to iron his own shirt on the weekends. Then, he tries to encourage her to go to bed with him – but she declines.
38	Ellen: (looks at Elmer with a little grin) So, you still have it bad for me, eh?
39	Elmer: yes, shall we have an early night?
40	Ellen: Not tonight. (sigh) I just can't do it tonight, Elmer. I just can't do it. I'm sooo tired, and I've got so much to do tomorrow. I know it would turn out badly if I tried.